Paul & the Gospels

Quaestor · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 58 Location: Chorleywood UK

I conducted a small exercise the other day riffling through Paul's epistles to find those places where it would have been logical for him to quote the actual words of Jesus. I found seven places where he didn't quote them and only one in 1Corinthians 11;23 where he did make an exact quotation from Luke 22;19.

The seven places involved are as follows:-

1) Romans 7; 2 Matthew 5; 31
2) Romans 13; 1 Matthew 22; 21
3) Romans 13; 9 Matthew 19; 19
4) 1 Cor. 6; 29 Luke 21; 32
5)Gal. 5; 21 Matthew 22; 39
6)Eph. 5; 8 Matthew 5; 16
7)1 Thess. 5; 3 Matthew 24; 43

It is interesting also that Paul's quotation from Luke relates to the Last Supper since it is quite clear from his writings that he is only interested in the actual events of the life of Jesus from that moment onwards.
Dennis

ickthoos · Joined: 09 Jul 2007 Posts: 8

You might be intersted in David Wenham's "Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?" I don't remember how many of those specific passages David deals with, but he suggests that there are a number of instances where there is a good to strong probability that Paul's aruguments presuppose a shared point of reference in Jesus' teaching. If that's the case and there's a shared point of reference in Jesus' teaching it wouldn't be all that surprising to not see Paul quoting what is alreay an assumed point of reference.

I wonder too if the occasional nature of Paul's letter shouldn't keep us from making hasty conclusion about Paul's interest in Jesus' life before the last supper?

-Craig

Quaestor · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 58 Location: Chorleywood UK

I don't see anything occasional about Romans and 3 out of 7 examples are there
Dennis

ickthoos · Joined: 09 Jul 2007 Posts: 8

For the occasion of Romans I'll refer you to Achtmeier, Green, and Thompson, "Introducing the New Testament: It's literature and Theology" pg 299-306 (text is searchable via amazon)

Also, Paul's letter is addressed to the churches in Rome implying some shared understanding in who Jesus was and what he did. I think that occasions the letter enough in and of itself to warrant some caution before reaching hasty conclusions.

-Craig

Quaestor · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 58 Location: Chorleywood UK

I managed to see two pages of the extract you quoted and page 299 starts off by saying that Romans is not only the longest letter that Paul wrote but is also "the most carefully worked out statement of the way Paul understood the Christian faith". It still amazes me that in a carefully worked out statement of Paul's understanding of the Christian faith he does not once quote the words of the founder. The words quoted above would also seem to indicate that Romans is far from being an occasional epistle.
Dennis

True54Blue · Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Dennis,

I'm a little confused as to your question. Are you criticising Paul for not quoting verbatim from Matthew in Romans? Romans is usually dated to 55-58 whereas Matthew is dated after 70 so it would be impossible for Paul to quote from Matthew. If you are wondering why the wording is not the same, reflecting some earlier writing(s), you must remember that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. He may have known Greek and spoken it occasionally, to the Syro-Phoenician woman for example, but the language of the people was Aramaic. Therefore, we do not have the "actual" words of Jesus in any account but translations of his words.

Tom

Quaestor · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 58 Location: Chorleywood UK

Tom,
I accept totally your point that the epistles were written before the date of the Gospels. That is not my point. My point is that these pericopes must have been circulating amongst the Christian communities prior to the writing of the Gospels and there may even have been in existence other proto-Gospels which have not come down to us. My point is that Paul virtually boasted of not wishing to know anything about Jesus prior to his passion and resurrection. This is made crystal clear by his failure to quote any words of Jesus prior to the Last Supper. Taking the two together and knowing that he had a very difficult relationship with the original apostles who had heard the words of Jesus, I cannot help feeling that there is something going on here which is far from being made plain to us. Like the book by Michael Goulder which I have spoken about elsewhere today, the Gospel looks less and less like a seamless robe and more like Jacob's cloak. Regarding the translation issue, Paul does not quote anything approaching any of the sayings of Jesus, nor does he call his Master's words up in support of what he has to say. This to me is highly significant.
Dennis

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